what they dope want us to know -- don't want us to know. and doesn't the leak system fail? you deny self-pain sociologically, but isn't that the failure that the cards are all held by the government? >> yeah. this goes to what i was trying to get at earlier about the necessary, constructive ambiguity that the government wants in this area. if what you said is right, that the government, um, the government wants to have it both ways and the same people who are trying to deny these foia suits are the ones in some concerted way leaking, then we have a real basis for cynicism. however, since leaks are not this monolithic phenomenon, we don't really know who's saying what, there's a lot of quasi-authorized talking, um, it's hard to really pin down that charge on the white house since, um, it's hard to say what they might have disclosed through leaks versus anyone else. >> but why should we divide the government like that? isn't it one government? >> yeah. so i think, um, this is kind of the dark side of what marty was, in a sense, celebrating, i